We often see evidence of how intricately linked Freemasonry is to the New world Order agenda. When doing so it's worth bearing in mind the article quoted below. It shows how Masonry has both an outer core, to which the majority of Masons belong and a secret inner core that most Masons are unaware of. It is this inner Luciferian (probably psychopathic) core that is wreaking such havoc on humanity.
Of course it isn't only Freemasonry that has both an outer and inner core. The majority of Catholics would consider themselves to be good Christians and would be totally unaware of their Satanic, Babylonian, elite in the Vatican. The same is true of all religions including, Judaism and Islam. Political party's also have an elite inner core that directs the main body. This is how a relative few come to control the many.
Subtitle: This is a short article we hope every Mason will read before he begins to read any of our other articles. There is a Masonic organization out there most of you know nothing of, even if you are a 33rd Degree Mason.
We have constantly received emails from Freemasons who are absolutely anguished over our articles depicting Masonry as being Satanic. They honestly proclaim to us that this is NOT the situation in their Lodge; further, they say, they are 32nd or 33rd Degree, and would certainly know what Freemasonry is and what it is not; and, they boldly proclaim: Masonry is NOT Satanic.
We are both right: You are right when you claim that Freemasonry is certainly not Satanic as you have practiced it in your Lodge. And we are right when we say that Freemasonry is Satanic to the core, and is striving mightily to produce the New Age Christ [Antichrist].
How, you ask, can we both be right? Simply put, Freemasonry is an organization within an organization. One organization is deliberately lied to and mislead with false interpretations, while the inner organization knows the spiritual Truth of Freemasonry, and embraces it with heart, soul, and mind.
DESCRIPTION OF THE ORGANIZATION OF FREEMASONRY
Let us hear Masonic author Manly P. Hall describe this two-dimensional organization of Freemasonry. Masonry is comprised of two distinctly different organizations, one visible and one invisible. Hall describes this two-level organization: [Hall was honored by The Scottish Rite Journal, who called him 'The Illustrious Manly P. Hall' in Sept, 1990, and further called him 'Masonry's Greatest Philosopher', saying "The world is a far better place because of Manly Palmer Hall, and we are better persons for having known him and his work"]. This is what Manly P. Hall said:
" Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']."
[Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]
Many well-meaning men are members of this visible society with no knowledge whatsoever of the inner invisible society. In fact, Albert Pike had some things to say about the brethren in the visible society: "Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]
Did you hear these key words from Pike? Masonry is a religion after all, after the order of the Satanic Mysteries, the equally Satanic Hermetic Philosophy, and Alchemy! Masonry conceals its secrets from the brethren in the outer visible society, no matter their rank; only the Elect in the inner invisible society ever know the truth. The poor brethren in the visible society are spoon-fed "false explanations and misinterpretations" of its symbols" -- for what reason? -- those poor guys in the visible society "deserve only to be mislead".
If a man were known to revere Jesus Christ in the beginning of his membership within Masonry, he would be immediately shunted into the visible society, and would never, ever learn the truth. You would never be considered an Adept, or a Sage, or one of the Elect, for those terms are reserved for the members of the invisible society. You would be one of those who were deliberately lied to about the doctrines of Masonry, and given deliberate misinterpretations of its symbols, so that you would merely THINK you knew the Truth.
Pike then completes his instructions to intentionally mislead those members of the visible society, by saying:
"So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray." [Ibid., p. 105]
Members of the visible society are referred to as the 'masses', and you do comprise 95% of all Masons. Listen to what Pike says about telling the truth of the organization to the 'masses': "A Spirit", he said, "that loves wisdom and contemplates the Truth close at hand, is forced to disguise it, to induce the multitudes [that is you] to accept it ... Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance." [Morals and Dogma, p. 103, 3rd Degree]
If a person is not capable of accepting the Truth that inner-core, invisible Freemasonry really worships and serves Satan, then such Truth would become "deadly" to you. Therefore, "fictions are necessary" so visible Masons would not be so devastated that they would leave Freemasonry and expose its inner secrets.
A very recent book also speaks of these two organizations. David Ovason, a noted astrologer, has written a book publised in 1999, entitled, The Secret Architecture of our Nation's Capital: The Masons and the Building of Washington, D.C. This book is not an anti-Mason book; in fact, a glowing forward to this book is written by none other than C. Fred Kleinknecht, 33 Degree, Sovereign Grand Commander, The Supreme Council, 33 Degree (Mother Council of the World), Southern Jurisdiction, U.S.A., Washington, D.C. In other words, the conclusions of this book are highly thought of by one of the most important current Masons in the world today! Listen to what this book says about the two organizations of Freemasonry:
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| Albert Pike's statue in Washington DC |
So, David Ovason admits that Masonry has both an "inner" [Invisible] and an "outer" [Visible] society. And, Albert Pike has boldly stated that the "neophytes" are deliberately taught untruths about the meaning of the symbols!
New Age author, Bill Cooper has this to say about these two fraternities, one within the other.
"Most members of the Freemasons are not aware that the Illuminati practices what is known as 'secrets within secrets' or organizations within organizations." [Behold A Pale Horse, p. 79]
The final example of this "fraternity within a fraternity", the Invisible residing within the Visible, comes from the oldest New World Order planning document known to be in existence. This document is one of the best examples of Automatic Writing, and it details many of the changes societies throughout the world must make in order to achieve the Kingdom of The Christ. This document is known as the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and is being followed carefully today. Listen as the supernatural author speaks of the two organization within Freemasonry. The author is speaking of the guise by which the Illuminati will ultimately seize dictatorial control.
"7. For what purpose then have we invented this whole policy and insinuated it into the minds of the gentiles without giving them any chance to examine its underlying meaning? For what, indeed, if not in order to obtain in a roundabout way what is for our scattered tribe unattainable by the direct road? It is this which has served as the basis for our organisation of SECRET MASONRY WHICH IS NOT KNOWN TO, AND AIMS WHICH ARE NOT EVEN SO MUCH AS SUSPECTED BY, THESE GENTILE CATTLE, ATTRACTED BY US INTO THE SHOW ARMY OF MASONIC LODGES IN ORDER TO THROW DUST IN THE EYES OF THEIR FELLOWS."
[Protocol #11 - The Totalitarian State, Paragraph 7; Emphasis was in the original]
Notice that this supernatural author described the Freemasons of the Outer, Visible Fraternity as "Gentile Cattle" which had been deliberately drawn into the Fraternity for "show" so as to "throw dust in the eyes of their fellows". It turns out that the Masons of the Invisible Fraternity think quite lowly of the Masons of the Visible Fraternity!
But, why should we be surprised, for Albert Pike called the Visible brethren who are just trying to learn what the symbols of the Lodge mean, "conceited interpretors". [Morals and Dogma, p. 105]
By the way, for those of you who have tried to convince me that Albert Pike is discredited today, listen to what David Ovason in his book on the secret Masonic architecture of Washington, D.C., says about Pike:
1. "Albert Pike -- probably the most learned esotericist in the United States ..." [P. 31]
2. "... Albert Pike was a fine scholar in some areas ..." [P. 92]
3. "The learned Albert Pike ..." [P. 366]
4. "... Pike died in his rooms at the temple on April 2, 1891. Seven years later, Congress approved the raising of the Albert Pike memorial ... The statuary is imposing. A larger-than-life, full-length satute of Pike stands on a high pedestal, attended by a lamenting woman said to represent the spirit of Masonry." [P. 321]
Remember, this book was glowingly recommended by the current top leader of Freemasonry, C. Fred Kleinknecht, 33 Degree, as noted above! Obviously, if Mr. Kleinknecht thinks this highly of Albert Pike, then all those people who have tried to convince me otherwise need to take this matter up with Mr. Kleinknecht! The fact is, Pike IS Freemasonry today.
There IS one short paragraph that properly and concisely defines the heart and soul of the Invisible Fraternity of Freemasonry. Let us return to Manly P. Hall for this quote:
"When a Mason learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy."
[The Lost Keys To Freemasonry, Manly P. Hall, published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, 1976, p. 48; Emphasis added]
The Scottish Rite Journal praised Manly P. Hall in 1990 as "Masonry's Greatest Philosopher". One 32nd Degree Mason wrote back to me, stating that he had never, ever heard of Manly P. Hall; yet you can see his book was published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company. The only reason this high-ranking Mason had never heard of Manly P. Hall is that Hall was a leader of the Invisible Fraternity, while this Mason was participating in the Visible Fraternity!
"There is no dissociation between the One Universal Church, the sacred inner Lodge of all true Masons, and the inner-most circles of the esoteric societies. [Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy, p. 513]
Bailey is saying here that, once you get into the Inner, Invisible part of Freemasonry, there is no distinction possible between this heart of Masonry, the true Universal Church [which we know to be the church of Antichrist], and of the similar inner-most circles of the other secret societies throughout the world.
But, then, Bailey makes an even stronger statement revealing the Inner, Invisible Masonic fraternity.
"The Masonic Movement ... is the custodian of the law; it is the home of the Mysteries, and the seat of initiation. It holds in it symbolism the ritual of Deity, and the way of salvation is pictorially preserved in its work. The methods of Deity are demonstrated in its Temples, and under the All-seeing Eye the work can go forward. It is a far more occult organisation than can be realised, and it is intended to be the training school for the coming advanced occultists." [Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy, p. 511]
Since the meaning of the word, "occult", is "hidden", or "invisible", we know that Bailey is here speaking of the Inner, Invisible part of Freemasonry. And, not only is does this Invisible Fraternity exist, it is intended to be the training ground for the coming advanced occultists!!
THIS is the Invisible Freemasonry, about which you have been kept in ignorance all along! To verify this fact even further, we encourage you to go to the publishing and distribution house of Invisible Freemasonry, Kessinger's Freemasonry and Occult Publishing; Kessinger's publishes all the old, formerly very secret Masonic books of the Invisible Society. The address is http://www.kessingerpub.com/ and we encourage you to peruse the subjects they have listed at the very bottom of their Home Page, noting the extremely Satanic, anti-Christian subjects of which the Invisible Fraternity is comprised! We have noted a few of these subjects below as Kessinger's has listed them:
Alchemy; Ancient Religions; Astral Body [Satanic practice]; Astrology [Forbidden in Bible]; Auto-Suggestion; Babylonian; Blavatsky, H.P. [one of the most Satanic Black Magick practitioners of all time! Her teachings were studied by Adolf Hitler and provided basis for the Jewish Holocaust]; Buddhism; Card Reading; Chaldean [Babylon and Chaldean Mysteries were brought into total annihilation by God for their severe Satanism, and is the same Babylon condemned in the Book of Revelation]; Christian Mysticism [This is the "Christianity" of Masonry, where every single doctrine is reinterpreted]; Christian Science [Fully anti-Christian but compatible with Masonry]; Clairvoyance [Satanic to the core and forbidden in the Bible]; Color and Sound [Critically important to Satanism]; Cosmic Consciousness [SATANIC]; Crystal Gazing [Forbidden in Bible]; Divination [Forbidden in Bible]; Druidism and Celts [Elevated human sacrifice to highest levels]; Eastern Doctrines; Esoteric Christianity [Redefining Christian doctrines]; Evolution [And you just thought Masonry was compatible with true Christianity]; Fortune Telling [Forbidden in Bible]; Geomancy and Gematria [Satanic]; Gnosticism [Fought against in the Epistles of Paul in the Bible]; Hermetic; Holy Grail [Satanic allegory to produce Antichrist]; Hypnotism; Islam; Karma [Satanic doctrine teaching Reincarnation]; Love and Sex Consciousness [Completely Satanic]; Magic [Forbidden in Bible]; Nature Worship [Sun Worship primary worship of Invisible Freemasonry]; Palmistry [Satanic Divination]; Phallicism [Worship of Male erect Sex Organ!]; Qabalah [Satanic Reinterpretation of Hebrew Old Testament]; Reincarnation; Rosicrucian [Satanic to the core]; Serpent Worship [Not only is Masonry a religion, it worships the Serpent, actually Satan himself]; Telepathy [Satanic communication without audible language]; Tarot [Divination forbidden in Bible]; Transcendental Physics; Zoroastrianism [Satanic cult destroyed by God in Old Testament].
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| Obelisk (on a sundial) in the Vatican, St Peter's Square |
Listen to Albert Pike speak of the obelisk:
"Hence the significancy of the phallus, or of its inoffensive substitute, the obelisk, rising as an emblem of the resurrection by the tomb of buried Deity …" [Morals and Dogma, p. 393]
Now, you know why you see so many obelisks atop the graves of Freemasons, for it is "an emblem of the resurrection of buried Deity"; the Invisible Mason believes he is becoming a god throughout his life, so the obelisk at his grave is simply the visible manifestation of that belief.
The obelisk was originally created by the Egyptian Mysteries of the Pharaohs, and is spoken of in the Bible. Listen:
"… King Jehu said to the guards and to the officers, 'Go in and slay them; let none escape'. And they smote them with the sword; and the guards before the king threw their bodies out, and went into the inner dwelling of the house of Baal. They brought out the obelisks of the house of Baal and burned them." [2 Kings 10:26, Amplified Bible]
God Almighty ordered the Satanic obelisks burned, but only after He ordered King Jehu to slaughter the worshippers of the obelisk, also known as Baal worshippers. Thus, the Invisible Freemasonry is devoted to the obelisk worship so forbidden by God as to be worthy of the Death Penalty. Keep this in mind the next time you contemplate the Washington Monument!
Finally, Serpent Worship takes us directly into Hell itself, for Satan stands directly behind this form of worship. This is the Invisible Fraternity of Freemasonry, and I bet you never knew it existed, did you?
41 comments:
RH,
That's two very interesting articles and two well done finds. Good research. There's no doubt that Albert Pyke's letter to Manzinni and the Protocols of Zion are living proof that something is behind the obliteration of the west.
nice one.
Just a question, from an Orthodox Christian, why is Budhism condemned? is it the belief in re-incarnation? or does their doctrine that the Universe is neutral amount to a non belief in the creator/
Johnny, I really couldn't pretend to have any great knowledge on the subject I'm afraid. I did spot the quote below on the Unhived Mind website. The contributors there are almost all Protestants so this might be helpful.
"Buddhism came about in the 500's B.C. Buddha was a teacher and philosopher (who was called the "Enlightened One"). He was born in ca. 563 B.C. near Nepal. Buddha never wrote down any of his teachings or his early disciples. Hundreds of years later after his death existed a few manuscripts pertaining to the Buddhist religion. Some believed that Buddha didn't start a new religion, but he lived (and died) as a Hindu. Yet, most of the manuscripts do not appear until nearly 1,000 years after his death. Hundreds of Buddhist sect disagree with each other on the Pali and Sanskrit literary traditions (among other things). He rejected the materialism that was rampant in his region of India. Buddha say people suffering, but didn't create a hospital. Buddha abandoned his family as taking up the life of a beggar/monk. This would increase human suffering. He did mediation and tried to find purpose in his life. He didn't inspire his wife or child to help the poor or needy though. This was selfish for the Buddha to not fulfill his responsibilities as a man to return to his child and wife. Siddhartha didn't claim to be a god, but believed in many gods as a Hindu. He believed that human suffering was caused by many things like ignorance. He developed the 'Four Noble Truths in order to achieve a nirvana (and enlightenment). The religion of Buddhism spread worldwide today. Numerous Hollywood movie stars love Buddhism and are Buddhists. Buddhism is similar to Hinduism, but with differences. Buddhism rejected Brahamanism, the caste system, the Vedas, and some rejected polytheism. Buddhism teaches that ignorance is a primary cause of man's problems, but don't offer forgiveness of sin as a way to help mankind out.
Buddhism offers no concrete plan for salvation, but strives for enlightenment. Buddhism doesn't glorify God or try to made radical positive contributions for humanity (but seek nirvana). God is eternal, but the Universe isn't. It had a beginning and an end since it was created by God. God created man in his own image, God created matter (matter and the mind), and God is good. Man's sin caused his downfall to death not because of metaphysical issues. Karma and reincarnation are unnecessary, because God sent his Son to die for our sins on the cross (in order for human beings to have redemption)."
H, I'm halfway through a second viewing of another of Walter Veitch's lectures that I think you'll find very interesting. It's entitled 'The Islamic Connection'.
Thanks for that RH. After watching the first couple of minutes I realised I had already seen bits and pieces of it about 4 or so months back. It is very interesting.
The reason I suggested it, apart from it being another very good lecture by Walter Veith, is the light he shines on Masonry's relationship with Islam. There's a quote from Pike's 'Morals and Dogma' where he says:
"The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammeded one, belong on the alter; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work."
Veith leaves us in no doubt that the one by which Masons 'must walk and work' is the Koran. we also direct links to Islam in Shriner masonry.
There's another Pike quote from 'Morals and Dogma' where he says:
"... and Yesus the son of Joseph, the Lord, and his Apostles and after these Mohammed the son of Abdlla, with his law, which is the law of Islam; and the disciples of truth followed the law of Islam."
It seems certain that Islam and the Judeo/Christian 'West' are to be bought into conflict in order to create the 'one world religion' synthesis. Veitch's lecture gives us an idea as to exactly what this synthesis will be. It may well be a lot more Islamic than we thought.
He also shows how the synthesis is likely to revolve around Mary who he identifies with Isis and ultimately Lucifer.
I also found the A. E. Waite quote stating that Babel was a Masonic enterprise very interesting considering the blatant Babel symbolism in the EU.
RH,
You're bringing up lots of very interesting information on religions and freemasonry. In my research into Islam, there is a very strong similarity to the Talmud's view of the Goy and Islam's view on the kufar. Unlike Christianity, there is no looking at others as lower. It seems therefore that the main reason for the creation of Islam was to bring about the destruction of Christianity, that's really what I see, because in essence, the rivalry between Christianity has been a far greater one than against the Jewish.
For example, the Koran is practically a plagiarism of the Bible. In order for people to accept Islam it got one up on Christianity by saying that Islam is one and true religion. In essence it's where Christianity left off, as the older faith, that has evolved into Islam, via the word of Allah.
RH, there is no Judeo-Christian West. There is a Christian west that has had Jewish infiltration of it to the detriment of the people within. We have an Israelite-Christian west but most certainly not a Jewish one as in essence, Jews shouldn't even be in the west but have managed to infiltrate every major establishment with which to wield control.
With your posts on Masonry and Pyke's revelations and Veith's inner and outer circles then of course it's very apparent that something incredibly sinister and hidden is going on there's no doubt. Let us remember that Islam came after Christianity and Judaism and Christ stated that the Pharisees, the Sanhedrin were not of his father but of the synagogue of Satan. There's no doubt in my mind that the Jews of Christ's time, many of them were the power figures of Babylon, who along with the creation of the Roman Catholic Church have been very much responsible with creating the situation we have today.
There's just so many twists and turns and loose ends. It can get very frustrating because there's simply too much to know.
Andrew Edmans.(Fremen)
The Koran and Bible are good Books. But many Muslims read the Hadith which is a corruption of the Koran.Likewise the Jews with thier Talmud which has now become our corrupt so called laws and feudal system (and freemasonry). And many Christians now read many different corrupt so called Bibles.
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different subject: Footer
I put my name to this in public.
http://z6.invisionfree.com/Bill_Still_Reforum/index.php?showtopic=504
Oh, I should say about the footer, work anomalously; but some have to be brave enough to point it out.
H, Veith's conclusion is that Islam was created to halt the spread of Christianity in the Middle East and then destroy it. He makes a good case and we can certainly see parallels in the present day with Islam being one of the main weapons being used to destroy Europe.
I tend to agree with you about the 'Judeo/Christian West'. The point is though is that it is presented as that and that is how the 'battle lines' are likely to be drawn in any future conflict.
I'm intrigued as to why you think the 'Jews' were the 'power figures of Babylon'. 'Mystery Babylon' was and is Rome. Veith and others have conclusively proved this. The Roman empire ruled over Jerusalem in the time of Christ. Rome was the power and the Pharisees were not the rulers of Rome.
Remember also that the 'Jews' are not the single bloc that is often presented. Ordinary Jews are just as brainwashed and manipulated as we are, though in different ways.
I know what you mean by their being 'too much to know' and to understand. Sometimes it's easier to stand back and see the bigger, general, picture. It's probably not necessary to know all the twists and turns. In fact it may well be impossible until the 'system' is defeated.
Andrew, thanks for passing by. I'm afraid I can't agree with you that the Koran is a 'good book'. I'm surprised that you, as a Christian, would think so. Apart from anything else Islam demotes Jesus to being a mere prophet and denies that he died on the cross. There's much more of course including the hatred of kufirs, which as a Christian would include you.
This article discusses a statistical analysis of the koran. Here's the pertinent quote:
"Once the Koran is rearranged in the right time order, categorized and Mohammed's life is woven back into it, another fact leaps from the page. Very little of the Koran is devoted to how to be a Muslim, the religion of Islam. Instead, the majority of the Koran is about kafirs, non-Muslims. Kafirs are the worst of the creation. Allah hates kafirs and plots against them. Kafirs can be tortured, murdered, robbed, raped and enslaved. The Koran is fixated on kafirs, as was Mohammed. To measure the Koranic fixation on kafirs, let us measure the fixation by counting the amount of text devoted to them. In Mecca an astounding 67% of the text is devoted to the kafir. In Medina 51% was about kafirs. The amount of text in the entire Koran devoted to kafirs is 61%. As an aside, Islam excludes kafirs in every way from its religious practice. Since the kafir is outside of Islam, the term political Islam is used to describe the doctrine of Islam as it is applied to the "others", the kafirs. So 61% of the Koran is about political Islam, not religious Islam. (KS Lal gives the figure of 63% in Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, Aditya Prakashan, 1999, N. Delhi, pg. 4)."
In my comment above on September 25th, 12.49am there's a link to a video of a lecture by Walter Veith that you might also find interesting.
Andrew
“Andrew, thanks for passing by. I'm afraid I can't agree with you that the Koran is a 'good book'. I'm surprised that you, as a Christian, would think so.”
"The Koran and Bible are good Books. But many Muslims read the Hadith which is a corruption of the Koran.Likewise the Jews with thier Talmud which has now become our corrupt so called laws and feudal system (and freemasonry). And many Christians now read many different corrupt so called Bibles."
How many times have you been asked to show us where the Koran is bad? You keep confusing the Koran with the Meccans, and the Hadith which has become the false religion and divisions of so called Islam. The same can be said about so called Christians, Freemasons Jews and whomever over the years.
If you cannot show us the differences then you are purposely lying, like they do and most people do to others and yourself. A situation where we are all as bad as each other for believing in lies.
"Kafirs can be tortured, murdered, robbed, raped and enslaved. The Koran is fixated on kafirs, as was Mohammed. To measure the Koranic fixation on kafirs, let us measure the fixation by counting the amount of text devoted to them."
And as bad as the Hadith is, it does not say that. What you have been reading is some Jewish, freemasonry, talmudic nonsence. To make Muslims look worse than they already are. Obviously not as evil as the Jews though.
Jews as in those who say they are, but are not.
Andrew, I really can't pretend to understand your defense of the Koran. As I said in my earlier comment Islam demotes Jesus to being a mere prophet and denies he died on the cross.
It would take me too long to compile all the reasons why don't like Islam. Firstly, I'm not altogether sure it's possible to separate the Koran from the Hadith and Sira. That said there's still more than enough in the Koran for me to dislike and that includes the sanctioning of paedophilia.
Here's a selection of violent verses. If you can point me to a Koran that doesn't contain these verses I'd be most grateful.
I would assume that the numerous contradictions, inconsistencies and errors in the Koran could well be down to the fact that Allah chose to reveal such important information to someone who couldn't read and write.
As a Christian you may be interested in this comparison between the 'Angel' Gabriel that visited Muhammed and the references to the Angel Gabriel in the Bible.
Actually, if you do feel like mounting a defense of Islam you could earn yourself a few quid.
Andrew.
"Andrew, I really can't pretend to understand your defense of the Koran. As I said in my earlier comment Islam demotes Jesus to being a mere prophet and denies he died on the cross."
The Koran does not say that. But yes many Muslims do.
And again you post links to aload of made up nonsence.
4:156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-
4:158. Nay, God raised him up unto Himself and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-
4:159. And, of the People of the Book, they all must believe him (Christ) before their death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Surah 43:61);-
Please refute the nonsense in detail please. I have checked the verses listed as violent against those on Quraan.com and they concur. As for any of the articles on the Faith Freedom site I look forward to reading your debates with Ali Sina who would presumably have to finally have to pay out on his $50,000 challenge.
Please also show me any Muslim that believes that the Koran doesn't actually mean that Jesus didn't die on the cross but only that the 'human body called Jesus' did. I found the verse you quoted in an article that stated:
"Muslims believe that Jesus peace be upon him according to the Holy Quran is a wonderful, humble, generous messenger of God who came down and revealed God's words to his people, the people of Israel. Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God, nor they believe that God ever chose to come down to earth in a form of a man to die for our sins to purify us and forgive us.
According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross. Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross. The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one. Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins."
Please show me any Muslim that believes in anything other than the above.
Please also explain to me how you can be a Bible believing Christian and consider the Koran to be a 'good book'.
Muhammed claimed to be the last of the prophets with the final message for mankind. Do you agree with this and if so does the Koran supersede the Bible?
Oooooooo that was quite a battle. I have to say I am rather bemused that a Christian can defend the Qur'an. It seems almost an impossibility but there you go, anyone who reads this will see a Christian defending the Qur'an, when the Qur'an states that it is the words of God and that it supersedes any religion that went before it and the one true religion.
Andrew
"Oooooooo that was quite a battle. I have to say I am rather bemused that a Christian can defend the Qur'an. It seems almost an impossibility but there you go, anyone who reads this will see a Christian defending the Qur'an, when the Qur'an states that it is the words of God and that it supersedes any religion that went before it and the one true religion."
The Koran says repeatedly to read the Bible, all as one Book so to say. It does not say that it supersedes it at all. Although many Muslims see it as superseding.
"According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross. Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross. The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one. Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins."
Some so called Muslims may but not all. Do you remember one who pointed out this to you before on an onther forum. I do, but I forget his name.
"Muhammed claimed to be the last of the prophets with the final message for mankind. Do you agree with this and if so does the Koran supersede the Bible?"
No he didn't where did he say that Harry.
You've been taken in hook line and sinker by Masons.
Andrew
"Please refute the nonsense in detail please. I have checked the verses listed as violent against those on Quraan.com and they concur."
Do they, could you show us the Koran you used; if you cannot then you are either lying or even using a fake one, so lets end this then by checking it?
Andrew, no I haven't been duped by masons. I see you fail to answer certain questions and then continue to make absurd claims without actually backing them up with evidence.
Please tell me which Koran you are using. If it is as authoritative as you claim surely there'll be a reference to it on-line.
Please show me where I can find the Muslims that agree that Jesus died on the cross and that refute the generally held Islamic belief that he didn't die on the cross. An unknown commenter on an unknown forum doesn't qualify I'm afraid.
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)
The overwhelming majority of Muslims take this as evidence that Muhammed was the last of the prophets. Please show me evidence of those who don't.
Andrew, are you a Christian? Do you think that Christians should place as much value on the Koran as they do the Bible? Are Allah and the God of the New Testament one and the same? Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?
There are so many more questions I could ask but really what's the point?
Andrew
"Please show me where I can find the Muslims that agree that Jesus died on the cross and that refute the generally held Islamic belief that he didn't die on the cross. An unknown commenter on an unknown forum doesn't qualify I'm afraid."
I don't know if there are many, the PTB Jewish freemasons have seen to much of that.
"But many Muslims read the Hadith which is a corruption of the Koran.Likewise the Jews with thier Talmud which has now become our corrupt so called laws and feudal system (and freemasonry). And many Christians now read many different corrupt so called Bibles."
A situation where we are all as bad as each other for believing in lies.
test
My post keeps disappearing.
yusuf ali translation that cbm told you about on the UK column forum with a link and not the one I have told you about many times.
The EDL thread which is really a zionist defence league.
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"
Well he was a Prophet but not the Mahdi.
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"Andrew, are you a Christian? Do you think that Christians should place as much value on the Koran as they do the Bible? Are Allah and the God of the New Testament one and the same? Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?"
Yes, Yes, Yes, Christ. Jesus was just a body used.
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"There are so many more questions I could ask but really what's the point?"
Because you will most likely be killed soon. The Jewish freemasons want the world to themselves alone with just a few slaves.
I found a copy of the Yusuf Ali translation on-line and all of the verses correlate with the ones I previously quoted. I did notice something though. In 3:110 it says:
"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
So most 'people of the book' are 'perverted transgressors'. In 3:113 we find out who the few who are not are.
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand [For the right]: They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration."
Do you 'rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and …. prostrate [yourself] in adoration' or are you a 'perverted transgressor'?
I see you can't give me one single example of a Muslim that agrees that Jesus died on the cross. So it seems that you are making a claim that the overwhelming majority of Muslims (if not all) do not believe.
The point is Andrew that Muslims consider Jesus to have only been a prophet and not the Son of God. They also consider Muhammed to have been the final prophet and as such to have superseded Jesus.
Nowhere do I or even Muslims claim that Muhammed was the Mahdi so that is irrelevant.
My point about asking if you were a Christian is that it is literally impossible to believe that the Koran is a good book if you are a Bible believing Christian. I'm surprised you can't see this.
For the record it is not solely freemasons, Jewish or otherwise, who 'want the world to themselves'. It is not even solely 'Jews'. Mystery Babylon contains both Jews and Gentiles and as tempting as it is to fall into the trap of thinking that the top of the pyramid is Jewish I doubt it very much.
Andrew
"So most 'people of the book' are 'perverted transgressors'. In 3:113 we find out who the few who are not are."
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand [For the right]: They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration."
"Do you 'rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and …. prostrate [yourself] in adoration' or are you a 'perverted transgressor'?"
Yes it's the same as the Christian Bible, But not as you and most of them interpret it.
In my Thoughts all the time even when I sleep.(not so called praying and neeling so many times a day or church on sundays. Both books say not to go to Church or temples or listen to priests and Imams.
Do you see how you are no better than they are and have perveted the interpretation like most people do.
Mahdi is Arabic for Christ so it should be relevant, do you see again how so little you know.
Mystery Babylon
Is the Jewish Jesuit controlled papacy combined with Jewish banking controlled and so called Britsh Royals. And Freemasonry.
Andrew
"Mystery Babylon contains both Jews and Gentiles"
96% of modern so called Jews are Ashkenazi Gentiles.
As in those who say they are but are not.
And I know you know that, part quote.
Andrew,
When RH asked you:
"Andrew, are you a Christian? Do you think that Christians should place as much value on the Koran as they do the Bible? Are Allah and the God of the New Testament one and the same? Do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God?"
You replied:
"Yes, Yes, Yes, Christ. Jesus was just a body used."
I find this somewhat perplexing. A Christian is a follower of Christ, whom to them is the son of God. Now, prophets of God and sons of God are two completely different things. John the Baptist was a prophet. Now both prophesised but only one was the son of God.
Therefore, you can't be a Christian if you believe that Christ was the son of God and believe that Christianis should place as much value in a religion that sees Christ as merely a prophet.
Simpy put Andrew, to state you are a Christian, who believes that as much value should be placed in the Qur'an when Islam perceives of Christ to be a prophet would be like a Muslim stating that they should place as much value in the New Testament when Christians call Muhammad a warlord and certainly not a prophet.
You cannot call yourself a Christian when and believe in the Qur'an at the same time of what it says of Christ. You either believe he was the son of God or you don't.
And as for Zionism, yes I agree, it does want to control much of the world, no doubt about that.
Andrew.
"I find this somewhat perplexing. A Christian is a follower of Christ, whom to them is the son of God. Now, prophets of God and sons of God are two completely different things. John the Baptist was a prophet. Now both prophesised but only one was the son of God."
We are all the children of God, every human BEING. But 99.9999% of people don't follow God, so then those who don't are the children of whom you/they Obey, God or the opposer.
The Messiah (Heberew) Christ(Greek) Mahdi(Arabic)is a title not a name.
We here are all prisoners, Christ is not, he set the example of how you have to be 24/7 in thought, word and deed and nothing less will do. But you can get so much loving spiritual help to aid you if you seek it.
Apologies for keeping it short, posts seem to have to be on these blogs.
Andrew, I wish you well but I'm afraid I've wasted more than enough time discussing these issues with you. You obviously have your own interpretation of the Bible, Christianity, the Koran and Islam. It's not one that I've ever encountered anywhere else, nor does it appear to be backed up by any evidence.
On the occasion that you do answer my questions I can barely comprehend what you're saying.
I always try to stay open minded in case new evidence comes my way that makes me reconsider certain things. Nothing you've said has caused me to do this. As I've begun to look deeper into the 'spiritual' aspects of the NWO I have developed a greater respect for true Christianity than I ever had before. The exact reverse has happened in regards to Islam.
You are, of course, welcome to your 'interpretations' but have you ever considered that it might be you that's 'perverting' them?
Andrew
"I have developed a greater respect for true Christianity"
What is your interpretation of true Christianity a so called Jewish one? Ie a NWO where people enjoy their servitude?
And I do agree, the organised relgion of so called Islam is bad and all it's factions.
Are you for those Law's that you would not discuss, where usary is not allowed and people have the right to thier own plot of free land and more?
Please show me where I've ever refused to discuss 'those laws'. I'd be more than happy to see usury 'not allowed' and for people to have their own plot of land.
Andrew
Harry you and many were asked many times on the UK Column forum, which is seething with freemasons and establishment shills, and I don't just mean obvious fakes like the Baron. Can we agree that all organised religions are false: Catholic, protestant, so called Islam, of which there are thousands of different of shoots of each?
I can remember frequent references to 'the Law' in your comments on the UK Column forum but whenever I endeavoured to get an understanding of what you meant by this I never seemed able to. I certainly never personally refused to discuss this with you.
I can certainly agree that organised religions are used to deceive and manipulate the masses. As I said my research has given me a much greater respect for true Christianity which I take to be the teachings of the Bible. Where we disagree is that I personally can't say the same for 'true' Islam or the Koran.
Andrew
Show us an example of true Christianity?
I agree with what you say about the religion of Islam, but just like many? Christians they dont follow the Bible; just like most Muslims follow the Hadith and not the Koran.
"whenever I endeavoured to get an understanding of what you meant by this I never seemed able to"
The Law's are clearly written for all to study for finer points. What was it you could not understand of the weightier Law's?
I suppose true Christianity would be found in those who follow scripture alone as opposed to the Catholic church who seem to have created doctrines not contained within the Bible.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of the Koran and Islam I'm afraid.
I'm assuming the 'Laws' are contained within the Bible but I've yet to see a clear description of exactly what those Laws are. As you may have gleaned I could not consider myself a Christian and I'm yet to read the Bible in its entirety. What I'd be keen to find is a clear enunciation of exactly what the Laws are.
Andrew
"What I'd be keen to find is a clear enunciation of exactly what the Laws are"
Pick one Law (subject) and we can go throught it.
"We are going to have to agree to disagree on the subject of the Koran and Islam I'm afraid."
You have changed your tune, show us where any Muslim follows the Koran likewise any Christian that follows the Bible.
"I suppose true Christianity would be found in those who follow scripture alone as opposed to the Catholic church who seem to have created doctrines not contained within the Bible."
Thats avoided the question and as you have never read the book "I'm yet to read the Bible in its entirety." You may/will find that much of it will take years of study on one verse and then still not understand it.
But the Laws are clearly written; would you like to choose one so as we can go through it.
I've a better idea, you pick a law.
I haven't changed my tune regarding Islam at all. You think the Koran is a 'good book' and I don't.
Andrew
"I haven't changed my tune regarding Islam at all. You think the Koran is a 'good book' and I don't."
It is a good book, but very few Muslims follow it; the same as Christians and the Bible.
"I've a better idea, you pick a law."
Casting pearls to swine.
Ezekiel 13 (extract)
Because the "foolish prophets" (politicians) have seduced My people, saying peace; and there was NO peace and one built a wall (N.A.T.O. and U.N.O.) and others daubed it with untempered mortar (non-hardening / useless cement), say to them that it shall FALL.
Therefore you shall not see any more vain prophecies: for I will deliver My people out of your hands and you shall KNOW that I AM the Lord.
And My hand will be upon the politicians that prophecy lies: they shall NOT BE in the assembly of My people, neither shall they enter into the "New Jerusalem" or the New Age. IMPORTANT - SEE Luke 19 v 27.
Luke
19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
19:27 But THOSE mine enemies, which would NOT that I should REIGN OVER THEM, bring here, and SLAY [them] before me.
First of all how long you will take time to argue about religions, none of them are right either wrong but they do share something in common: secrecy (where none of them is truly visible towards his own society,the contents of their books is contrarly opposing the fact in real life anywhere but their books are god's words which if applied should find peace at least between religions later among us instead each society defends itself by holding his own book as a weapon to prove that his better than the others while a religion is supposed to give the best not trying to be better,it is not a showoff party.
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